Rum online shops and auctions

What kind of rum, extreamly rare? FB Group "Rum Collectors" https://rumauctioneer.com https://www.catawiki.pl ebay

I'd like to seek for the ones under 1000 USD but hoping for a better price on the auction

If you sell at auction you have to pay the auction fee (Catawiki: 15% in Germany and the buyer have to pay 9%). Rumauctioneer (6% and 12% incl. tax for the buyer). Buyers calculate their costs in the price and don't bid more than it's worth. Under 1000 it's not a very rare rum, you will loose money if you sell at an auction. Sometimes I buy at the auctions for good prices, but bargains are seldom. See the last auction, it was a disaster for sellers: https://rumauctioneer.com/november-2020-auction

I sometimes shop from Ebay or bet on Catawiki. On Ebay, it’s common for sellers to try to charge extra prices, so you have to check what the product costs on the web. I usually negotiate with the seller to get a reasonable price. Before I bid on Catawiki, I first calculate how much I’m willing to bid by first checking the price on the web and then also taking into account the 9% fee to Catawiki and what the seller has for delivery cost. It’s common for sellers to have excessive delivery costs. When I shop online, I use ExcellenceRhum or RhumAttitude in Paris if I’m going to buy Agricole. Both have a very good range. In Germany I usually shop from Drinkology. I also usually shop from some Italian webshops, mostly from BaboWine.

Do you pay any additional taxes when the rum is shipped to your country from abroad online shops?

The Swedish rules mean that you must do it, but I don’t do it. The Swedish customs do not normally check packages sent from another EU country. So far I have not been affected by any control, but I have now stopped ordering from the UK as they have now left the EU.

@kudzey I only buy in the EU, no taxes here. This is a great shop, but they don't offer paypal for payments. https://sklep-domwhisky.pl Can you buy there and tell me whether I can trust this one? It's from you country.

I have also noticed sklep-domwhisky, but never tried them. Would be interesting to hear if we can trust them.

Recently I ordered several bottles from them. Everything was ok and the shipping was fast and cheap (around 25 PLN which is roughly 5EUR but it was sent to Poland). I hate to learn that i need to pay around 30EUR for shipping from rumauctioneer or catawiki. Bank transfer was also save. Nothing to complain about, I strongly recommend domwhisky.

By the way, any recommendations to invest my money in and sell the bottle after 10 years? I thought of Appleton 50 yo or Caroni.

I thought about investing around 10000 EUR. How long would you wait before re-selling? Do you sell on the auction we spoke about?

Rum is not the best investment. I would prefer to collect and drink that stuff, without a specific time horizon. If one of these bottles suddenly became very expensive, I would sell it. I think in five years all Caroni employee releases will double the price. If you buy some stocks or crypto currencies you can double your investment in a few months. I don't like to sell at this auctions, I prefer to set the price myself. I sell at a fixed price on ebay or to other collectors.

What do you think about El Dorado Skeldon 2000? It's relatively cheap at the moment. By the way, Vomi thank you for sharing your knowledge with me, i feel really grateful.

There was a discussion in German forums about ElD releases. Some bottles are very good, others are only average. The demand for this bottles is not very high and that's again the problem here. Almost all are still available. I tasted Enmore 1993 and it was average in the high end range. Skeldon and Albion are among the better bottlings. These are the best bottlings according to German forums: Enmore 1996, PM & Diamond 2001, Albion, Skeldon, Diamond 1998. You will find some reviews here: https://in-spiritus-veritas.blogspot.com/2020/11/el-dorado-rare-collection-diamond.html There are legendary bottlings, they just get more expensive and are not worth drinking. They are expensive to buy and they get even more expensive. Then there are Velier Caroni bottlings, some of them are going to be legends. Then there are some good bottlings for drinking, they are affordable without a great demand. That's the ElD range. Maybe one day prices will go up, but not in recent years.

Yesterday I won a few auctions at Rumauctioneer. https://rumauctioneer.com/december-2020-auction The costs are: shipping cost of 23 to 60 pounds without insurance (but I payed also for the insurance, 3%) and around 14% fees including taxes. It is only worth investing larger amounts of >1000€ or more. Some Caronis were cheap again. Thanks to the resellers the number of bottles was large and the prices ok.

Glad to hear it and congratulations! I also participated in the auction but only bought a bottle of kill devil. It wasn't worth it including the fees, i hoped to buy more bottles so that the shipping would be cheaper per one but I got outbid too high. I'm learning on my mistakes though and it's kind of exciting. Which Caronis do you mean to be cheap? The recent employees? What do you think about the prices of Guyanese Velier's bottlings prices? I also noticed that a bundle of several bottles was worth more than the sum of separate bottle prices i.e. the new hampden with birds or Caroni employees. Strange, isn't it?

You mean these bottles? https://rumauctioneer.com/lot/9770/uitvlugt-1996-velier-18-year-old-modified-gs Some Velier bottles contain the best Demeraras ever bottled. These are legends, like Macallan and still cheap if you get the bottle under 1k. But you have to know which are the best (88, 96SVW, 93, 81, 96SSN, 99SVW, 99). I would not drink them, I would drink El Dorado 3rd release and collect the Velier releases. The Versailles or the Venezuela Kill Devil? Versailles is not bad for the price. https://rumauctioneer.com/auction-search?terms=Versailles+2004+Kill+Devil+12+Year+Old+Cask+Strength+&dsp=Current+and+Previous&show_page=20&sort_by=p_DESC&form_build_id=&form_id=auction_form Three Dicky Caroni bottles and the three 20cl sets of the 4th release were cheap. https://rumauctioneer.com/auction-search?terms=Dicky&dsp=Current+and+Previous&show_page=20&sort_by=p_DESC&op=SEARCH&form_build_id=&form_id=auction_form https://rumauctioneer.com/auction-search?terms=caroni+4th+set&dsp=Current+and+Previous&show_page=20&sort_by=p_DESC&op=SEARCH&form_build_id=&form_id=auction_form Have you seen the Foursquare Empery prices :) These bottles are still available at half price in Germany. https://rumauctioneer.com/december-2020-auction?s=5fce9ac5c2ea7 Hampden birds bottles are just nonsense. No C<>H, DOK and <>H in this collection. I mean, there is a HV LROK (120€) and HV LFCH (80€) on the market but people paying 300 to 500€ because there is a little bird on the bottle. It's not as crazy as it is with whisky, though. But some people lose their mind. You can buy a great Caroni for this price.

Nope, I gave up on this one and just bought the Venezuelan. I can also see many of foursquares for far better prices in online shops. I'm surprised people don't Google it up. We spoke recently about the prices of appleton joy, it has also gotten surprisingly expensive at the auction.

I saw the appleton JOY, it's also still available in Germany. I think it was a scam, I would wounder if someone would pay over 800 pound because the second bottle was only 490 pound. There is also the hearts collection with 26 and 25y old Appleton in cask strength. I would buy this one instead but it seems Appleton JOY is a good investment. We will see some of the hearts collection bottles on the next auction.

@"I saw the appleton JOY, it's also still available in Germany." I did not find many - I purchased the last one that i could find for 350€. "I think it was a scam, I would wonder if someone would pay over 800 pound because the second bottle was only 490 pound." second Bottle was US Import bottle... And what do you mean by saying "only 490 Pound"? Release price 3 Years ago was about 250, right? (...) "I would buy this one instead but it seems Appleton JOY is a good investment. We will see some of the hearts collection bottles on the next auction." I agree that both could be a good investment. I paid 350€ for JOY and im still not sure whether it was an investment or something I would prefer to drink one day. But my question as a rum enthusiast here is: The more i learn about secondary (premium) rum market the more i wonder why there is such a big hole between succsessful (valuable) rums to be sold at auctions (like velier, foursquare, caroni) and succsessful (drinkable, often sweetened) premium rums that sell good at primary market(e.g Oliver y Oliver rums). The auction community seems to be really conservative here, because i mostly see Caronis, Velier, Foursquare bottles. The auctions are full of them. But i barely know people who buy them for drinking. Do you guys know whether the traditionalist will give some more space for drinkable rums at auctions in future?

"I did not find many - I purchased the last one that i could find for 350€." 😄 Congratulation, I think it was a good buy. But I wouldn't drink it at this price. I would rather send it to rumauctioneer 🤣 I mean the difference between the both, 490 to 800 is too big. And yes the one is for US market, but the liquid is the same I think. Of course, the value goes up, but it's not a huge increase. I mean, you bought this bottle for 100€ more after three years, right? There are some "NAS - No Age Statement" Yamazki whiskys that you could buy three years ago for 800€ that would now sell for 10k. Or you could buy a Velier Caroni three years ago for 300€ and sell it now for over 900€. The increase in value is relative to a better investment. I'm more interested in the contents of the bottle. If I think it's worth the price right now, I'll buy it. Because I won't get such a rum at this price in the future. I bought Appleton 1995 for 240€ last week instead of the Joy, because I think there is a better liquid inside. But for a collector this fact doesn't matter. So you did everything right if you want to collect this. Rums in auctions are often pure rums made in the traditional way. They are very limited and fully aged. There is only a small supply of such rums. And the stock is getting smaller and smaller. I know a lot of people who drink them, you have to join a rum group. Yesterday was the Caroni day, many such rums were drunk. These enthusiasts don't drink multi-column distillations like Oliver & Oliver or Zacapa rums. These are modern rums, they have their place in the modern time but they can't reach the complexity and the age of legends like Caroni or Demerara. The future gap between modern and pure rum will be bigger. Because the demand from Asia will increase. And of course the nouveau riche Asians want the best bottlings and not the ones that are imported. And they prefer bottlings with an old history. I mean, you impress someone more if you offer a rum that was served on the English Navy than a Zacapa that was aged at 2300m. The old bottlings of modern rums will of course also increase, but not as much as the traditional ones.

Any thoughts on Hampden's endemic birds? I can't see these at any of the online shops, how much are they worth?

@Kudzey They were sold out immediately. In around 2min I think, there are also not that much bottles. You will see some at rumauctioneer I think. It's just collectors stuff. In my opinion the liquid is not worth the money on the secondary market. The collection is also not very great, no C<>H, DOK and <>H. There is also HV LROK (120€) and HV LFCH (80€) on the market but people paying 300 to 500€ for this birds.

@vomi First of all thank you for your thoughts and arguments. They appear very valuable to me. I agree with most of them. In short term the secondary market will definately belong to traditional rum. This trend will very likely become even stronger because we can expect some more traditional destilleries to collapse. This is my argument, traditonal rum is to exclusive and therefore it will die long term, because they are not very succsessful at the primary market. Therefore the future in long term will most likely be turning in favor of modern multi column brewed rum. This companies make more money, have bigger marketing budgets and higher popularity. Chinese or any other "new rich" wont have time to appreciate traditional rum only. They will buy anything rare and exclusive.

@Toni Could be, but traditional distilleries are also successfully. Hamden and Worthy Park have their own high quality bottlings like Hampden Estate Great House or Worthy Park Estate 12. Or look at bottlings of Demerara, the El Dorado Collection 3rd release is also a very good traditional rum. They are also successfully on both markets. I think the exclusive bottlings will experience a higher price increase. We are still far away from whisky. Volkswagen is also big, but Porsche still exists. It will be the same with rum. These two will coexist. And the nouveau riche have enough money, they don't need time to search for rare bottlings. They will buy them in auctions for high prices. Appleton Joy is also a traditional rum. "Appleton Estate Joy Anniversary Blend is made up of rare 35-year-old and 25-year-old pot still rums bottled at 45% ABV". https://inuakena.com/spirit-reviews/rum-review-appleton-estate-joy-anniversary-blend/ My issue is, that it was diluted to 45% abv. A high quality rum should not be diluted. If someone can't handle it, they can add some drops of water to it and that's it. Since Luca Gargano, it has also become clear to these manufacturers that high quality rums should be offered in cask strength (or with high abv) and that conoisseurs pay the highest prices for it. Hampden Great Hose is bottled at 59% and Hampden Overproof is 60%. Worthy Park Estate 12 is 56%. Plantation Extreme No4 is bottled at 60.3%.

Im not a real expert here but common sense is that modern multi still columns most likely will be economically superior to traditional pot still ones. I do understand traditionalist and their standards for high quality rums. No sugar, casc strength ABV and so on. It is good to have standards and experts. But at the same time i understand that 50-60% or more ABV rums are not easily consumable for average persons. You kinda need to be an alcoholic to enjoy these ABVs from the start. You have to learn this. And at this point most of people who potentially can buy expensive rum will quit and buy "premium" rum at 40% ABV that is probably sweetened. I have no problems with that. I see this consumers as additional market potential.

That is right, but it's also true that a pot still distillation produces more flavors than a multi-column distillation. If we only look at it from an economic point of view, there would be only the cheapest Bacardi rum. And how tasty is the cheapest Bacardi Rum? There is also another economic point. You can dilute a high abv spirits yourself to the point where you can enjoy it (the manufacturer does the same). But some flavors are lost. But what does not work is to undo the dilution. Let's calculate: https://www.distilling-spirits.com/tools/calculations/diluting-alcohol If you pay 50€ for 0.7l bottle with 58% abv, you can dilute it to 1l to get a bottle with 40%. 50€/1000*700=35€ for a bottle. So a bottle for 50€ with 58% abv costs the same as a bottle for 35€ with 40% abv. But that doesn't matter either. I'm only interested in the flavors.

Did you win something at rumauctioneer? I got the two old Dictadors and a HLCF. Not very cheap, but also not expensive. https://rumauctioneer.com/lot/13383/dictador-xo-perpetual https://rumauctioneer.com/lot/13386/dictador-xo-insolent https://rumauctioneer.com/lot/13376/hampden-hlcf-2010-velier-habitation-6-year-old

Congratulations on your bids! I didn't bid this month but I can see there were many interesting bottles. It's like sellers from the EU accumulated their bottles they wanted to sell since January. Are all the lots you got from the EU office? Any post-brexit problems with shipping so far? I'm still awaiting some shipments from whisky.auction but polish non-EU import law is very unpleasant :(

Right, I only bought EU bottles. I haven't bought from the UK since brexit. There are problems in Italy and France, some buyers have not yet received their bottles. I don't wanted the trouble with customs.

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